Had a game tonight. Didn't take photos or write exclusive notes as I was trying out the new woodie list to see what its limitations were etc (+ had 10 Helf archers, 10 Glade gobbos and a unit of 5 gobbo scouts filling in for the Glade Guard/scouts I dont have yet). I have a fair idea of what each unit can do, it is just a matter of seeing it in action to find weaknesses etc.
Anywho the list I used was:
lvl4: beasts, scroll, ICI 280
BSB: La, HODA, Abane 132
19 GGuard: m, sb-flame 256
2x10 GGuard: m, sb 276
2x10 GGuard: m 252
2x5 Scouts 170
4x8 Dryads 384
2x5 Wildriders: (m) 260
2x6 Waywatchers 288
2 Eagles 100
2398
I was up against WoC with:
Tznch lvl4: 3+ ward and puppet
fire lvl1 scroll
Tznch BSB in unit of Tznch board and sword warriors
Tznch discman with 2+ as and 3+ ward vs shooting and MM
unit of flaming halberd korn warriors
Flail korn marauders
3x5 doggies
2 unmarked chariots
warshrine
hell cannon
I was really excited to see what I could do vs this army as it has 1 of the 2 key things my list is not good against....t4/5/6 with good armour save. I have to tools to point deny and get the key points (wolves, chariots, hellcannon, discman, maurders), just got to play smart.
Random deployment mission didnt help my cause either.
The Good:
Amber spear is awesome. Killed all the crew of the hellcannon and took 4 wounds off it. (We played that the d6 wounds got distributed....not sure if right, or if should have distributed a single wound that does d6 wounds to the target...my way sounds more logical). I Only managed to cast wildform once (would have prefered to have cast it at least once more!).
The sheer amount of units is great. I nerfed the opposing magic phase purely by having nothing really to target. Tznch magic is MM heavy, so had something to cast. I can just imagine how powerful this "tool" will be vs some of the more traditional lores (like shadow that will do next to nothing vs me). Very Few magic missiles in 8th = good for MSU.
Also love the shooting when not trying to get passed 2+/3++ 2 wound annoying flying guy who refuses to die.
The Bad:
UNIT POSITIONING. One crucial error cost me the game. I set up my dryads to take a charge from a chariot (with nearest unit behind being 13 inches away). I then killed the chariot with shooting, allowing his Tznch warriors behind to come in, fluff, win by CR and over run into flank of waywatcher unit (just clipped), meaning only 6 KB shots at discman (who soaked up 2 rounds of concentrated shooting + HODA before dying). I joke rolled the tied up in combat Waywatcher unit's shots...would have killed the discman allowing 2 turns of Glade Guard to concentrate on other stuff. oh well.
Lessoned learned: LOTS OF UNITS = LOTS OF THINKING ABOUT ALL OPTIONS. I'll get used to it as currently set 2/3 sets of traps with Empire-just now got to think in 4/5 traps.
Fluffed attacks are dumb. 8 dryads charge maurders in building (curious as to what I would do)...kill 4 and lose 4 in return. I just dont see the hype around Dryads. Sure vs ws3, t3 stuff they kick some serious butt, but vs ws4 they can fluff, and vs armour they can fluff even worse. Same thing happened with unit of wildriders vs wolves...all the riders missed and got 1 wound from the horses. Sure that happens when using dice, but garrrrr!
Also I had 19 dryad attacks vs a chariot for 5 combat phases before I finally killed it-and it started down 2 wounds from wildriders (who had fled to safety causing the overrun/counter situation...accidentally). Seriously...
So the jury is still out as to whether I have the right balance. I was unlucky to take AGES killing the 2nd chariot in Combat (where a rundown/kill on charge would have finished off the hellcannon a turn earlier saving my 2nd unit of waywatchers), and to have the tnzch guys overrun into the other waywatcher unit denying me the KB on the discman (he warded the KB from the 1st unit grrr). Also the Korn warriors had stubborn/4+ ward from warshrine on them from turn 2. lvl4 also sucked self into warp last turn sigh....nothing really went my way.
However I liked that I could trade points and be "up" as trading with units worth nothing. Also 4 units of scouts (2 of them chaff) and 2 eagles + 2 vanguarding wildrider units is fantastic. Got to love being able to casually deal with all chaff turn 1 before the Glade guard shoot, allowing them to focus on the real stuff. Having sooooooooo many drops also means in the missions where take turns to deploy (ie all but 2) I can put all my Glade Guard opposite their intended target and let rip while the chaff (ie everything else) distracts the rest of the army. Perfect...now to get good at it!
Thursday, 27 October 2011
Wednesday, 26 October 2011
The High Elves-finally a painting update
As promised, here is a couple of pics of what my High Elves are looking like.
First up are the Swordmasters:
These are the lastest things I have painted-and the unit that relies on the red part of my colour scheme. The guy with the winged helmet is a conversion I stole of the internet. It is the upper body of the griffon rider, the legs of the IOB swordmaster standard bearer, the arms are from the chariot set, the hand is from the flagellant in the stocks, and the sword is the IOB swordmaster unit champ. The swords/horn/banner have blue flames licking them because this is the unit that I give the flaming banner (and therefore need flames that look magical).
Next up the chariots:
So two Tironic Chariots. I have dropped them from my standard list, however I very much see a role for them, especially when go down the MSU route (more on that in a later post).
The BSB:
Bit of a conversion. The banner and torso is from the noble kit, along with the lion fur coat (not really visable). The legs are from the chariot set (yes, I got myself a 3rd set of chariot crew from horde o bitz). and the sword arm is from the Phoenix Guard champ (who are still yet to be assembled because they are boring and I refuse to use life magic!). Standing on a rock for a bit of height.
The Mages:
Yet to paint the magical swirl and the floating rocks. Still not decided which one is the "P addict" (lvl2 High magic with the crystal) and which one is the shady master (lvl4 shadow and scroll). Should possibly swap the equipment around, but I just like the nick names too much. I was scared these guys would look like Christmas decorations, but thankfully they didnt.
The White Lions:
These guys rock! I am also rather pleased how they came out (and just look different to the swordmasters, yet use the same colours). The bottom pic is the 40x40mm rank filler, The pic left foot is pinned and balances on the tree stump. Lots of fun with wire and green stuff making this...baby steps for me...next project is a hand made dragon....
The Spearelves:
Didnt photograpgh as well as I hoped. These guys are not yet finished either. They still need a shield that will be red with gold pattern (the rock on hands holding half moon from sprue). The unit has been modelled to rank up as a phalanx with the spears all pointing forward in front 3 ranks, the progressing up. Looks really cool.
The RBT crew:
Another casualty of list tweaking (though I've heard good things about them vs Ogres). I posted these guys because they are exactly how the archers will end up looking. Due to the lack of armour they emphasis the green cloth over the red and cream/stone colour.
Still to come are the griffons (as eagles), the noble on an eagle, the archers, the reavors, the RBT's, the Dragon Princes, and eventually the Dragon.
Also still thinking of how to do the bases autumn theme. I'll probably do the sand thing, then put autum leaves and grass on it.
Anywho, hope you like the pics. As usual comments are more than welcome.
First up are the Swordmasters:
Next up the chariots:
The BSB:
The Mages:
The White Lions:
These guys rock! I am also rather pleased how they came out (and just look different to the swordmasters, yet use the same colours). The bottom pic is the 40x40mm rank filler, The pic left foot is pinned and balances on the tree stump. Lots of fun with wire and green stuff making this...baby steps for me...next project is a hand made dragon....
The Spearelves:
The RBT crew:
Still to come are the griffons (as eagles), the noble on an eagle, the archers, the reavors, the RBT's, the Dragon Princes, and eventually the Dragon.
Also still thinking of how to do the bases autumn theme. I'll probably do the sand thing, then put autum leaves and grass on it.
Anywho, hope you like the pics. As usual comments are more than welcome.
Friday, 21 October 2011
The new BSB
Just thought I would share what my new BSB looks like. After years of on/off casual ebay/trademe hunting for the limited Ed. BSB that I believe came in the battleforce box when Woodies were last updated, I finally found one for $14US that had not even been undercoated (apparently the apparent "power level" of the army affects the price!).
As a side note, who are all these people who buy cool models, don't assemble/paint them/unpackage them...leave them lying around for years then decide to sell them?
A quick clean up, paint job in the current scheme and it looks like this:
The flames in the background are because my partner took the photo and loaded it onto her computer. I then jokingly requested flames in the background...
Nothing too exciting or "different". A Quick look through the High Elf army book and I found the symbol for revenge (which is a woodie kindred), so I thought that was appropriate given the lack of big lumbering trees in my new direction. I see my army as more an expeditionary force.
So what you all think? I could possibly tart up the banner a bit more, but not too good at the free hand, so as much as a want beautiful elven swirls etc, I'm not exactly able to do it myself!
Postscript:
As requested, here is the BSB minus flames of awesome.
Hope that is a bit better!
The rock he's standing on is dheneb stone, washed with the devlan mud, then highlighted with dheneb stone. The skin is foundation flesh, elf flesh highlights, then ogren flesh wash. The red is foundation red, washed black and kinda layered with blood red (dip normal brush in watered down colour, suedo dry brush-but more layering than flicking over for just highlights). Brown is scorched brown, then vermin brown, then devaln mud wash. Green is dark angels green, then goblin green, then goblin green/rotting flesh highlights. The symbol on the flag then has skull white mixed into do a final, final highlight. Metal is chainmail with black wash. Antlers are scorched brown, dheneb stone, ogren flesh wash, then dheneb stone again. Spite is white with blue wash. Feathers are (poorly done as usual) Scorched brown, then snakebite leather with white ends. Hair is Tausept ochre base with bleached bone mixed in to highlight.
As a side note, who are all these people who buy cool models, don't assemble/paint them/unpackage them...leave them lying around for years then decide to sell them?
A quick clean up, paint job in the current scheme and it looks like this:
The flames in the background are because my partner took the photo and loaded it onto her computer. I then jokingly requested flames in the background...
Nothing too exciting or "different". A Quick look through the High Elf army book and I found the symbol for revenge (which is a woodie kindred), so I thought that was appropriate given the lack of big lumbering trees in my new direction. I see my army as more an expeditionary force.
So what you all think? I could possibly tart up the banner a bit more, but not too good at the free hand, so as much as a want beautiful elven swirls etc, I'm not exactly able to do it myself!
Postscript:
As requested, here is the BSB minus flames of awesome.
Hope that is a bit better!
The rock he's standing on is dheneb stone, washed with the devlan mud, then highlighted with dheneb stone. The skin is foundation flesh, elf flesh highlights, then ogren flesh wash. The red is foundation red, washed black and kinda layered with blood red (dip normal brush in watered down colour, suedo dry brush-but more layering than flicking over for just highlights). Brown is scorched brown, then vermin brown, then devaln mud wash. Green is dark angels green, then goblin green, then goblin green/rotting flesh highlights. The symbol on the flag then has skull white mixed into do a final, final highlight. Metal is chainmail with black wash. Antlers are scorched brown, dheneb stone, ogren flesh wash, then dheneb stone again. Spite is white with blue wash. Feathers are (poorly done as usual) Scorched brown, then snakebite leather with white ends. Hair is Tausept ochre base with bleached bone mixed in to highlight.
Tuesday, 18 October 2011
Resurrecting the Woodies-the paint job
ZOMG! painting post.
I thought I would give an update of how the Woodie painting is coming along. A few months ago I had a post on repainting the Glade Guard. Looking back that was very productive time because it meant that the "core" of my army is up to date + gives me a new theme to work with.
So first thing I updated were the Waywatchers....the 2nd unit I painted (the first being Wardancers who need a rules update to justify a new paint job!). 12 are ready to go (sans bases-though that happens last!).
Here is what they look like:
Hopefully that looks ok.
SO as you can see I've continued the grey/green cloak with the red highlight....looking suitably killy.
Next up I got my first unit of 5 Wildriders updated. These guys were the 3rd thing I painted. (Note to EVERYONE OUT THERE: when someone starts the hobby there is a reason why Space Marines are the go to army-nobody cares if you butcher the paint job on them learning the tricks of the trade!)
So the same theme continued.
I painted the horses in 2 different ways. The brownie horses are Dwarf flesh with a Devlan Mud wash. Tail is Scorched Brown with Snake Bite Leather highlight.The white horses are Astronomican Grey, with Skull White dry brush. The tail was Astronomican Grey, Ogryn Flesh wash then Skull White highlight. I wanted them to look different to the horses I use for my Empire army, and I think I have achieved this.
So there we have it. Not bad for a weeks work. I got myself the OOP BSB from Ebay that I currently painting. 5 of the 5th Ed OOP Waywatchers are still on there way to be my scouts. Really looking forward to theme arriving. Now to sneak 2 more boxes of Glade Guard past the boss so I can complete my 2400 army.
I will however be taking Woodies to Vermintide III. I'll have a post closer to the event going over the list and my thoughts behind it. My High Elves are most likely also going to be getting a run onto the field at Vermintide III. My friend (who deserted the faithful for the heresy Warmachine...) will be running them. Hopefully the do really well as he is planning on being a little "unique" with his set up + it gives me an excuse to get the painting of some of it finished. Next painting post will be what they look like and my thoughts behind why I did what I did etc.
I thought I would give an update of how the Woodie painting is coming along. A few months ago I had a post on repainting the Glade Guard. Looking back that was very productive time because it meant that the "core" of my army is up to date + gives me a new theme to work with.
So first thing I updated were the Waywatchers....the 2nd unit I painted (the first being Wardancers who need a rules update to justify a new paint job!). 12 are ready to go (sans bases-though that happens last!).
Here is what they look like:
SO as you can see I've continued the grey/green cloak with the red highlight....looking suitably killy.
Next up I got my first unit of 5 Wildriders updated. These guys were the 3rd thing I painted. (Note to EVERYONE OUT THERE: when someone starts the hobby there is a reason why Space Marines are the go to army-nobody cares if you butcher the paint job on them learning the tricks of the trade!)
I painted the horses in 2 different ways. The brownie horses are Dwarf flesh with a Devlan Mud wash. Tail is Scorched Brown with Snake Bite Leather highlight.The white horses are Astronomican Grey, with Skull White dry brush. The tail was Astronomican Grey, Ogryn Flesh wash then Skull White highlight. I wanted them to look different to the horses I use for my Empire army, and I think I have achieved this.
So there we have it. Not bad for a weeks work. I got myself the OOP BSB from Ebay that I currently painting. 5 of the 5th Ed OOP Waywatchers are still on there way to be my scouts. Really looking forward to theme arriving. Now to sneak 2 more boxes of Glade Guard past the boss so I can complete my 2400 army.
I will however be taking Woodies to Vermintide III. I'll have a post closer to the event going over the list and my thoughts behind it. My High Elves are most likely also going to be getting a run onto the field at Vermintide III. My friend (who deserted the faithful for the heresy Warmachine...) will be running them. Hopefully the do really well as he is planning on being a little "unique" with his set up + it gives me an excuse to get the painting of some of it finished. Next painting post will be what they look like and my thoughts behind why I did what I did etc.
Friday, 14 October 2011
2400 Empire vs Dark Elves: Ode to the 4+ ward/regen
A show down between the Empire (revised list from 2 posts ago) vs Dark Elves consisting of:
Lvl4: stuff shadow
Lvl2: flame and scroll
Bsb cauldron
Hero on Pegasus with the dumb ward thingie
Block of spears
Block of frenzied 2hw corsairs
10 xbows
20 Bguard
Block of witch elves
2 units of shades
Hydra
Spells were rolled for, armies deployed and the battle commenced!
TURN 1
Empire:
stuff moves up=-mainly the stank and the chaff. Peg moves to block the cannons form the hunters.
The magic phase was rather uneventful with 1 harpie killed with the ruby ring and the shades by the cannons suffering -1 BS. Shooting was more eventful. Xbows shot 3 shades, archers killed 1 xbow and the Hydra regened 2 cannon hits sigh.
Dark Elves:
The harpies jump to in front of the peg
Rest of army avoids the flagellants and the stank except for a unit of harpies that landed in front of it to delay it for a turn (re: no overrun).
The magic phase is interesting. All dispel dice are used to stop a pit on the stank. The Stank is then withered to t8 and the archers running with the flagellants find themselves with -3 to the miasma’ed stats.
The shades then return fire at the xbows and kill 2. The xbows wipe out a unit of free company and the other shades fail to do anything to the cannon phew!
TURN 2
Empire:
The stank declares charge on the harpies who fail terror test and flee. Stank then redirects into the black guard...the plan all along! The Pegasus charges the harpies.
Banishment kills 4 xbows. One cannon finally get past the regen and do 4 wounds to the hydra, the other fails to wound. In the peg combat the harpies lose and flee-peg reforms to face the shades.
The stank destroys the black guard killing 9. 1 wound is caused back in return.
Dark Elves:
1 unit of harpies rally, the other continues to flee. The Elf Peg decides to charge the flank of the flagellants. The 2 shades then flank charge the xbows.
The hydra moves through the forest, only for it to be dangerous, so refrains from marching. The left flank shades move to the flank of the empire xbows.
I let Power of darkness be cast. Flaming blades is then IF’ed on the bguard. The rest of the dice are lost and 5 spearelves die. The shades have a poor shooting phase bouncing off a cannon while the xbows kill 1 archer.
In the combat phase the 2 shades run down the xbows who fail a steadfast test. Burning blades fails to help the black guard and the Elf Pegasus wounds the flagellants who fail to reform to face.
TURN 3
Empire:
The Pegasus charges the shades.
My archers move to divert the hydra away from the flagellants inside the ldship 9/bsb bubble.
Magic is a big let down when the 2 flaming magic missiles are dispelled. The hydra then regens 2 cannon hits sigh. In combat, the empire Pegasus takes a wound failing a re-roll 1+ as. However the shades are still run. The stank kills 5 black guard-many surviving with a 5+ ward. 4 more flagellants die to the elf Pegasus.
Dark Elves:
Well, the best laid out plans can always fail as the archers flee in terror from the hydra who promptly redirects into the flagellants. The corsairs fail a frenzy charge on the waralter, 4 dying in the dangerous terrain.
The fleeing harpies on cannon side rally. Magic phase did nothing with mindrazor failing to cast on the blackguard. Shooting kills 1 free company and bounces off the waralter.
The flagellants are butchered down to 2...thankfully the waralter is looking at the flank of the hydra...
TURN 4
Empire:
Waralter runs over the hydra with impact hits and continues into the shades, last flagellants die to the elf Pegasus. 1 unit of halberds turn to protect battle line from any advancing witchelves who have been sitting back in a frenzy trap successfully restraining every turn. Lvl4 also leaves the unit for some reason I have forgotten (most likely to be looking in the right direction for pit on bsb).
Black guard almost dead (thank you 5+ ward)
The cannons then decide to bounce off the BSB (more 4+ saves grrr).
Dark Elves: (sorry forgot pics of this turn)
The Pegasus charges the lvl4 (left enough room for it to land-silly mistake). The lvl4 flees and the Pegasus stumbles forward into awkward position with halberds looking right at it. The corsairs then flank the waralter -7 dying on the charge (with KBlow blessing). The corsairs get flaming bladed and mindrazor is dispelled. Shooting kills 2 free company-they hold. In combat the shades are run over, the corsair champ declines challenge (boo hiss). In a crucial dice moment, the 1 Kblow inflicted is warded. PHEW.
TURN 5
Empire:
SO the lvl4 rally, the Pegasus moves back to protect it from the shades.
The halberds declare a charge on the elf Pegasus who flees and is run down woot!
The trap on the witch elves then gets personal as the free company move up real close.
So my next attempt to get rid of the cauldron fails when I fail to cast Pit. The Archlector IF’s soulfire and manages to kill 1 corsair...
The cannons continue their reign of terror when 1 fails to hit the cauldron and the other fails to wound...the archers on the other hand kill a single witch elf!
In this combat my 4+ ward skills fail me and the archlector dies. However thankfully the alter is unbreakable! Also the Stank finishes off the black guard.
Dark Elves:
Finally the harpies get a charge on the cannon and delete it, over running into the 2nd one.
With an exposed stank, the lvl4 decides to IF pit and suck it up with a 1 inch scatter. The shooting then adds to the misery by finishing off the free company.
TURN 6
Empire:
Pegasus charges the harpies in Combat with the cannon and defeats then-saving the cannon!
My lvl4 then gets his chance to IF the pit and promptly misses the cauldron with a 5 inch scatter.
Dark Elves:
Mindrazor scrolled meaning the alter survives yay!
RESULT
Darkelves win by 120 points. A very close game that would have been mine had my IF pit hit the cauldron-but of course by the same small margin. My cannons failed to capitalise on anything really due to fantastic ward and regen rolling. This meant I swapped my flagellants for his hydra (and I suppose his peg man who was caught in the open). Not the best swap, but the best I could do given the circumstances. I was expecting the witchelves to be used a bit more offensively-but my opponent insisted that the halberds would have won the grind. I suppose he was correct given the frenzy trap I set (but with no way to capitalise on it...).
Tuesday, 11 October 2011
Thoughts from the forest
Following up from my musings about the Empire, my thoughts have been distracted by all the flowering trees in the Hutt. This naturally brings out the Woodie in me (tree hugger that I am-blame my father and having a garden with "potential"). So I thought I would share my current beliefs on how I think I want a woodie list to look like.
First off a history:
I've had mixed success with the woodies in 8th. Vs some armies I have kicked some butt, vs others I have fallen apart. Success has ridden on how quickly the Treeman dies (or not) and if my Treekin are gatewayed/flamed to death. Shooting has played a biggish part, but mainly I have stuck to a rather boring formula of:
lvl4, bsb, bwraith with cluster, 20 GG, 10 GG, 2x 10 Dryads, 6 treekin, 2 eagles, Treeman and then spare points on more trees.
Works wonders, but is really let down by the fact that it does alright in most areas, but excels at none. Compare that to my Empire (excels bait and trap based combat with plenty of scary and owns both magic phases) and my High Elves (excels at straight up fisty cuffs and dangerous in the magic phase).
So what do woodies excel at? Shooting and avoidance. s4 move and shoot is awesome. small units that pack a punch is awesome. I have not been utilising these 2 aspects of the woodies. Instead I have been relying on the t5/s5 to win the day...and at 390 points a units that's a lot of hope (especially when for LESS points my 18 swordmasters will walk over 6 treekin without blinking).
So I have decided to focus on emphasising the shooting and the avoidance to create Elven based woodie lists.
Oh-and my 46 Eternal Guard are still yet to get removed from their box-as beautiful as they are. Here's hoping the drop in cost and/or get awesome (at least to 7th levels of awesomeness when they were deceptively amazing).
Below are 3 lists that I have worked on in succession to help demonstrate my thought process:
First list:
lvl4: scroll life 275
BSB: LA, Abane, HODA 132
20 GGuard: m, sb-flame 268
4x10 GGuard: m 504
2x10 GGuard: m, sb 276
5 wardancers 90
5 wardancers 90
4 Tkin 260
5 Waywatchers 120
2 Eagles 100
Treeman 285
2399
So this list is like "ZOMG SHOOTING" Will waltz over any army that has no calv/isnt skaven. However, 285 points are just asking to be pitted/stone throwered/gatwayed etc. It's good, but excessive and falls apart vs certain things.
Second list:
lvl4: scroll, life 275
BSB: Abane, HODA: 130
20 GG: m, sb-flame 268
4x10 GGuard: m 504
2x10 GGuard: m, sb 276
5 wardancers 90
5 wardancers 90
6 Tkin 390
6 wildriders: (m) 156
5 Waywatchers 120
2 Eagles 100
2399
SO similar theme to first list except the pit target has disappeared and in its place is a combat effective unit of treekin and some wildriders. Wildriders are a bit controversial in anyone's language in 8th because they have lost their main 7th role...sit back, chose target and pounce. I ague that they can still do this-they just have to be a bit savvy about it-and vanguard really helps here. Deploy 3 wide to reduce return attacks. Hit target, win combat and reform to wide formation to maximise special rule. Also gives a unit to charge forward at chariots etc. HOWEVER, the list is still vulnerable to storm banner and will get crowded out and block its own line of sight...shooting is excessive.
Third and latest draft:
lvl4: scroll, life 275
A.Highborn: La, 2hw, Dhelm, BoLoren, a.bodkins, SoRB 289
BSB: LA, Abane, HODA 132
19 GG: m, sb-flame 256
2x10 GGuard: M 252
2x10 GGuard: m, sb 276
5 wardancers 90
5 wardancers 90
6 Tkin 390
5 wildriders: (m) 130
5 Waywatchers 120
2 Eagles 100
2400
So dropping 21 archers, 1 wildrider to gain the machine gun alter with uber defensive kit and 6 s4 attacks. This guy has it all. Deals with the things woodies struggle with (armoured knights, stanks) and adds a nasty combat charge. 6 s4 attacks alongside the wildriders and the target unit is losing that combat! List is now almost competitive vs Skaven too. Less shooting to be affected by Storm Banner and more small combat units to get multicharges going + enough fast units to get to the greyseer quickly. Still very vulnerable to the 13th...but what isnt really? (Tune in next week for my Horde of Inner Circle Knights list). If I was tabled by anything other than panzer division Skaven I would feel like I had played a crap game/really bad luck.
But vs other armies?
OnG-can deal with chariots, manglers, doomdiver and blocks of troops are just blocks of troops
WoC-Hell cannon will be an issue, but enough s4 shooting and KB to dent the warriors for clean up.
Delves-Dark what? List is effectively shadow magic proof and will out shoot anything that gets sent near it.
Empire- Stank can be wounded now (ignore armour woot!). lightly armoured troops die just as easily as the always have to bowfire and no real artillery targets except the alter (so get to combat fast or get smart about positioning for shooting at stank)
Helves: same as the Delves. More likely to see a dragon-but KB galore and bowfire will win the day.
DoC-hmmmm lots of t3 will suffer. Alter and Wildriders might find the siren annoying, and Greater Demons will require concentrated bow fire-but not impossible to fell one.
Brets- KNIGHTS ARE ANNOYING. Shoot lots to get past the armour! Treekin and wardancers will be king here.
Lizards- well hmmmmm shoot out the skirmishers, kill the steg and hope the Slann doesnt finish you off!
Tkings- yet to play them, but plenty of shooting to get the chariots and warsphinxs
Ogres-the new kids on the block...approach with caution...hopefully can kill enough with shooting before crying
Beastmen- well...list is very shadow proof, so that's them sorted.
So hopefully my reasoning is sound and the list is effective. If I cant get my Helves painted up for the next event (looking unlikely due to all the effort etc being put in), will very much consider rocking a list like this to see how it rolls.
First off a history:
I've had mixed success with the woodies in 8th. Vs some armies I have kicked some butt, vs others I have fallen apart. Success has ridden on how quickly the Treeman dies (or not) and if my Treekin are gatewayed/flamed to death. Shooting has played a biggish part, but mainly I have stuck to a rather boring formula of:
lvl4, bsb, bwraith with cluster, 20 GG, 10 GG, 2x 10 Dryads, 6 treekin, 2 eagles, Treeman and then spare points on more trees.
Works wonders, but is really let down by the fact that it does alright in most areas, but excels at none. Compare that to my Empire (excels bait and trap based combat with plenty of scary and owns both magic phases) and my High Elves (excels at straight up fisty cuffs and dangerous in the magic phase).
So what do woodies excel at? Shooting and avoidance. s4 move and shoot is awesome. small units that pack a punch is awesome. I have not been utilising these 2 aspects of the woodies. Instead I have been relying on the t5/s5 to win the day...and at 390 points a units that's a lot of hope (especially when for LESS points my 18 swordmasters will walk over 6 treekin without blinking).
So I have decided to focus on emphasising the shooting and the avoidance to create Elven based woodie lists.
Oh-and my 46 Eternal Guard are still yet to get removed from their box-as beautiful as they are. Here's hoping the drop in cost and/or get awesome (at least to 7th levels of awesomeness when they were deceptively amazing).
Below are 3 lists that I have worked on in succession to help demonstrate my thought process:
First list:
lvl4: scroll life 275
BSB: LA, Abane, HODA 132
20 GGuard: m, sb-flame 268
4x10 GGuard: m 504
2x10 GGuard: m, sb 276
5 wardancers 90
5 wardancers 90
4 Tkin 260
5 Waywatchers 120
2 Eagles 100
Treeman 285
2399
So this list is like "ZOMG SHOOTING" Will waltz over any army that has no calv/isnt skaven. However, 285 points are just asking to be pitted/stone throwered/gatwayed etc. It's good, but excessive and falls apart vs certain things.
Second list:
lvl4: scroll, life 275
BSB: Abane, HODA: 130
20 GG: m, sb-flame 268
4x10 GGuard: m 504
2x10 GGuard: m, sb 276
5 wardancers 90
5 wardancers 90
6 Tkin 390
6 wildriders: (m) 156
5 Waywatchers 120
2 Eagles 100
2399
SO similar theme to first list except the pit target has disappeared and in its place is a combat effective unit of treekin and some wildriders. Wildriders are a bit controversial in anyone's language in 8th because they have lost their main 7th role...sit back, chose target and pounce. I ague that they can still do this-they just have to be a bit savvy about it-and vanguard really helps here. Deploy 3 wide to reduce return attacks. Hit target, win combat and reform to wide formation to maximise special rule. Also gives a unit to charge forward at chariots etc. HOWEVER, the list is still vulnerable to storm banner and will get crowded out and block its own line of sight...shooting is excessive.
Third and latest draft:
lvl4: scroll, life 275
A.Highborn: La, 2hw, Dhelm, BoLoren, a.bodkins, SoRB 289
BSB: LA, Abane, HODA 132
19 GG: m, sb-flame 256
2x10 GGuard: M 252
2x10 GGuard: m, sb 276
5 wardancers 90
5 wardancers 90
6 Tkin 390
5 wildriders: (m) 130
5 Waywatchers 120
2 Eagles 100
2400
So dropping 21 archers, 1 wildrider to gain the machine gun alter with uber defensive kit and 6 s4 attacks. This guy has it all. Deals with the things woodies struggle with (armoured knights, stanks) and adds a nasty combat charge. 6 s4 attacks alongside the wildriders and the target unit is losing that combat! List is now almost competitive vs Skaven too. Less shooting to be affected by Storm Banner and more small combat units to get multicharges going + enough fast units to get to the greyseer quickly. Still very vulnerable to the 13th...but what isnt really? (Tune in next week for my Horde of Inner Circle Knights list). If I was tabled by anything other than panzer division Skaven I would feel like I had played a crap game/really bad luck.
But vs other armies?
OnG-can deal with chariots, manglers, doomdiver and blocks of troops are just blocks of troops
WoC-Hell cannon will be an issue, but enough s4 shooting and KB to dent the warriors for clean up.
Delves-Dark what? List is effectively shadow magic proof and will out shoot anything that gets sent near it.
Empire- Stank can be wounded now (ignore armour woot!). lightly armoured troops die just as easily as the always have to bowfire and no real artillery targets except the alter (so get to combat fast or get smart about positioning for shooting at stank)
Helves: same as the Delves. More likely to see a dragon-but KB galore and bowfire will win the day.
DoC-hmmmm lots of t3 will suffer. Alter and Wildriders might find the siren annoying, and Greater Demons will require concentrated bow fire-but not impossible to fell one.
Brets- KNIGHTS ARE ANNOYING. Shoot lots to get past the armour! Treekin and wardancers will be king here.
Lizards- well hmmmmm shoot out the skirmishers, kill the steg and hope the Slann doesnt finish you off!
Tkings- yet to play them, but plenty of shooting to get the chariots and warsphinxs
Ogres-the new kids on the block...approach with caution...hopefully can kill enough with shooting before crying
Beastmen- well...list is very shadow proof, so that's them sorted.
So hopefully my reasoning is sound and the list is effective. If I cant get my Helves painted up for the next event (looking unlikely due to all the effort etc being put in), will very much consider rocking a list like this to see how it rolls.
Friday, 7 October 2011
Rethinking the Empire post Home Con
Alrighty, so Home Con has been and gone. I've spent the last few weeks kinda avoiding the hobby. Not on purpose of course...more just taking a mental break to refresh.
I had 2 games 2 weekends ago with my Helves and Empire vs WoC. These games were very much dominated by the WoC lvl4 IFing turn 1 both games (game 1- sucked into warp, game 2-became a lvl1). The Empire game was a lot closer than the High Elf game when my horde Whitelions wiped out the 2hw Korn Warriors in 1 round (the Kwar charged me), then took out the Tznch warriors the next. Whitelions are nasty and should be avoided at all costs. At this rate my 2 boxes of Phoenix Guard are going to be spending alot longer on the sprue waiting for an armybook upgrade to justify their inclusion in an army. Swordmasters are still awesome-even if just from the threat factor. Lore of shadow and High Magic on the lvl2 is an awesome combo. The threat of drain magic means I can get the hexes off easier as dice are held back. My Star Trek fanboi credentials were tarnished though when wraith of Khaine only killed 1 doggie all game...
The Empire game was rather interesting. One of my Halberd blocks took a pounding early on, so reformed to bus only to get the discman in the rear. Careful use of lore of light and challenges meant that unit survived (holding lvl4, BSB and wpriest!). But damn can a WoC hero with the breath weapon rip through units! The other unit was lost to the Tzch warriors in a prolonged grind, but I cleaned up everything else for a comfortable win.
Last weekend was the Auckland tournament with the weird comp that I did not attend. I got a game or 2 tomorrow where I test my "revised" Empire list that rifts off the lessons learned and observed at Home Con + with the Ogres now a "real" consideration.
The list I'll be trialing:
Alector:Walter, GW, AOMI, VHS 286
lvl4: shadow, seal of destruction, ruby ring, dragon bane gem 285
BSB: FPA, Opal Amulet, ch.shield, ICI, 108
W.Priest: HA, fencers "hammers" 129
Captasus: FPA, sh, Dhel, SoMight, Dstone 160
38 Halberds: FC 210
38 Halberds: FC 210
2x5 FCompany Detach 50
30 Flagellants 300
10 xbows 80
2x5 5 archers detach 80
2 Cannons 200
Stank 300
2398
So some choices are aesthetic (dual hammers W.Priest is the most bad ass model ever...other than Fabio Valten), others are obvious (2 cannons).
I've opted to gross myself out and take stanky walter for a number of reasons that were mainly motivated by dropping the 2nd unit of Flagellants.
I found that 600 points in very squishy models can be awesome!, but if someone has the ability to stay out of combat and just simply shoot them = massive points liability. This happened vs Pete's Skaven, and Jack's Empire, and I forsee it vs any Lizardman/Delf/woodie list I come across.
Bringing in the Walter gives me loremaster 6 dice monkey of cool-freeing up my lvl4 for shadow. The last wee while I've stopped using the area of affect lore of light spells (other than pha's turn 1/2). This is due to me becoming more selective in my combat decisions, and from using shadow with High elves (ie forcing me to focus on 1 combat at a time). Shadow gives me the tools to deal with the things my Empire really struggle with (ARMOUR)...with mindrazor and also Pit for the big scaries (Im looking at you Ogres!).
It also ties up points in a hard to get place.
To counter the "focus on 1 thing at a time" I've added more chaff....skirmishing chaff. this means I should always catch the manglers + a little bit more token shooting (woot!) that is not to be underestimated; my archer detachments in 7th were fantastic at killing Greater Demons...
Also early game I have 2 magic missiles/turn to throw at opponents + pit if I have it. This + the shooting = clearing out the chaff and keeping the pressure up.
WHY NO ROCKET BATTERY????????????
For the same reason I dropped the mortar. I dont want to spend points on an Engineer to baby sit it + it's more free points for stuff that gets past my lines/comes on from behind. With 2 cannons, magic missles and shadow = dont really need "another" template. It also stops me feeling bad having Stanky walter...Jack was very correct when stating that walter, stank, engineered Rocketbattery, 2 cannons is a very, very strong empire build starting point! I like to sit just behind the "max" build out of principle.
Anyway, looking forward to gaming tomorrow and also vs Pete....if you're reading this...NO TAILORING!
I had 2 games 2 weekends ago with my Helves and Empire vs WoC. These games were very much dominated by the WoC lvl4 IFing turn 1 both games (game 1- sucked into warp, game 2-became a lvl1). The Empire game was a lot closer than the High Elf game when my horde Whitelions wiped out the 2hw Korn Warriors in 1 round (the Kwar charged me), then took out the Tznch warriors the next. Whitelions are nasty and should be avoided at all costs. At this rate my 2 boxes of Phoenix Guard are going to be spending alot longer on the sprue waiting for an armybook upgrade to justify their inclusion in an army. Swordmasters are still awesome-even if just from the threat factor. Lore of shadow and High Magic on the lvl2 is an awesome combo. The threat of drain magic means I can get the hexes off easier as dice are held back. My Star Trek fanboi credentials were tarnished though when wraith of Khaine only killed 1 doggie all game...
The Empire game was rather interesting. One of my Halberd blocks took a pounding early on, so reformed to bus only to get the discman in the rear. Careful use of lore of light and challenges meant that unit survived (holding lvl4, BSB and wpriest!). But damn can a WoC hero with the breath weapon rip through units! The other unit was lost to the Tzch warriors in a prolonged grind, but I cleaned up everything else for a comfortable win.
Last weekend was the Auckland tournament with the weird comp that I did not attend. I got a game or 2 tomorrow where I test my "revised" Empire list that rifts off the lessons learned and observed at Home Con + with the Ogres now a "real" consideration.
The list I'll be trialing:
Alector:Walter, GW, AOMI, VHS 286
lvl4: shadow, seal of destruction, ruby ring, dragon bane gem 285
BSB: FPA, Opal Amulet, ch.shield, ICI, 108
W.Priest: HA, fencers "hammers" 129
Captasus: FPA, sh, Dhel, SoMight, Dstone 160
38 Halberds: FC 210
38 Halberds: FC 210
2x5 FCompany Detach 50
30 Flagellants 300
10 xbows 80
2x5 5 archers detach 80
2 Cannons 200
Stank 300
2398
So some choices are aesthetic (dual hammers W.Priest is the most bad ass model ever...other than Fabio Valten), others are obvious (2 cannons).
I've opted to gross myself out and take stanky walter for a number of reasons that were mainly motivated by dropping the 2nd unit of Flagellants.
I found that 600 points in very squishy models can be awesome!, but if someone has the ability to stay out of combat and just simply shoot them = massive points liability. This happened vs Pete's Skaven, and Jack's Empire, and I forsee it vs any Lizardman/Delf/woodie list I come across.
Bringing in the Walter gives me loremaster 6 dice monkey of cool-freeing up my lvl4 for shadow. The last wee while I've stopped using the area of affect lore of light spells (other than pha's turn 1/2). This is due to me becoming more selective in my combat decisions, and from using shadow with High elves (ie forcing me to focus on 1 combat at a time). Shadow gives me the tools to deal with the things my Empire really struggle with (ARMOUR)...with mindrazor and also Pit for the big scaries (Im looking at you Ogres!).
It also ties up points in a hard to get place.
To counter the "focus on 1 thing at a time" I've added more chaff....skirmishing chaff. this means I should always catch the manglers + a little bit more token shooting (woot!) that is not to be underestimated; my archer detachments in 7th were fantastic at killing Greater Demons...
Also early game I have 2 magic missiles/turn to throw at opponents + pit if I have it. This + the shooting = clearing out the chaff and keeping the pressure up.
WHY NO ROCKET BATTERY????????????
For the same reason I dropped the mortar. I dont want to spend points on an Engineer to baby sit it + it's more free points for stuff that gets past my lines/comes on from behind. With 2 cannons, magic missles and shadow = dont really need "another" template. It also stops me feeling bad having Stanky walter...Jack was very correct when stating that walter, stank, engineered Rocketbattery, 2 cannons is a very, very strong empire build starting point! I like to sit just behind the "max" build out of principle.
Anyway, looking forward to gaming tomorrow and also vs Pete....if you're reading this...NO TAILORING!
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