Wednesday, 28 December 2011

hmmmm how to take on the VCs and Ogres with the puny elves

Hi all,

So now that the VC pics are out (awesome) and the rules are becoming clear/scary + it's the first "top tier" army book for 8th, I thought it would be an appropriate time to start thinking about how my puny "over priced/out of date/need an update" elves (of the pansy and hippie variety) can survive the onslaught of 8th in all its (fantastic) glory.

I've put alot of thought into it, applied the local comp (not as a limitation, but as a "guide" for my army and what to expect) and come up with the following two lists + justification:

First the Woodies:
lvl4: Beasts, scroll, ICI        280
BSB: Abane, HODA            130
4x8 Dryads                384
18 GGuard:FC-flame            250
6x10 GG: m                756
2x5 Wildriders: (m)            260
2 Eagles                100
2x5 waywatchers                240

So pretty much the list from a couple of posts ago minus all the surplus stuff.

Vs Ogres:
Basically hope and pray. T4 limited armour is no match for my shooting, so that is most of the army sorted. Scouting/stubborn Maneaters is basically free points turn 1. The big beasts are an issue, but can be shot and shot and shot. The 2+ as/unit rolling monsterous calv are the main issue (surprise surprise) as they cannot be KB'ed by the waywatchers (my usual anti armour). This unit/s will need to be bravely diverted by eagles and most likely the waywatchers (who are now "cheap"). Beasts + dryads in the flank could brave the attacks, but only as a last resort (and mainly to hold them up). Hopefully the "divide and conquer" principle will work its charm.

Vs VC's:
In 7th my woodies never struggled vs VC's. Treeman Ancient, treesinging + wardancers was basically the end of most units. Even my eternal guard had fun chomping though the zombie hordes and dryads LOVE etherals. Same principle in 8th me thinks. The etheral fast calv is the main concern and made me TEMPTED to drop an eagle for the magic attacks sprite and 2 more glade guard somewhere (still tempted), however that means losing a diverter which is useful vs other stuff + the etheral calv have "HODA target" written all over them (apparently for the same cost as Dprinces...). In fact, I believe this unit will be the first genuine HODA-able target in 8th. + dryads and wildriders can clean up where necessary. Flying monsterous stuff = just gets into short range faster. If concentrate on the points = should be able to get "quick wins" (sorry for gross business speak) and then hopefully not bleed too many in return.

High Elves:
Prince Moon Dragon: Ogre Blade, DA, Ench Shield, talis of Pres    571
BSB: A Silvered Steel, GW                    163
Noble: Eagle-AoC, GW                        168
lvl2: light, Scroll, amulet of light                170
25 Spears: FC                            250
25 Spears: FC                            250
10 A                                110
2x7 Swordmasters                        210
26 Wlions: m, Sb                        408
2 Eagles                            100

My first thought is "oooooo contraversal no lvl4". My response is as follows:
My general concern with High Elf lists (and my experiences with them) is that I can be carving up my opponents troops no problems, but the real points are invested in magic (and die too easily). lvl4, lvl1, crystal, scroll, banner of sorcery is a big chunck of the army that is basically there to make sure I get miasma off when I need it. Too many games have gone from solid wins to close wins because the lvl4 (with no real bunker-and I refuse to use Phoenix "I need mindrazor" Guard) dies.

So my solution is to limit the points spent on magic and instead invest in killy stuff + a lvl2 has the same dispelling ability of a lvl3. The  army (like the woodies) is not really reliant on the magic = less of an impact when the hellheart kills everyone else's 800pt investment. Highelves dont really need buffs and hexes to do well-they just need them to dominate. I would rather have a cheap dispelling effort and the odd magic missile to thin chaff to let the mass s5/6 shine.

With Killy stuff I have made another contraversal choice: the dragon.

The Dragon is there for a number of reasons:
1) looks cool and was really, really fun to paint
2) centre piece of army
4) repeat step 3
5) eagle noble + dragon = calv that is fast and not s3 after charge.

points 3 and 5 are the main ones for army considerations. I was thinking about dragon princes (and I love my lion riders) and they hit hard, but then get stuck-dragons dont (or do less often). With dragon and eagle 1 of them will get through-esp with eagle "body guards". Vs Ogres they give me something to hunt the monster calv, the iron blaster + the Prince has magic sword, and when up vs the ASL aura still swings at i8 (so still faster than an ogre). The Amulet of light on the lvl2 is because it means I can either have magic shooting (etherals) or magic attacks (killing treekin) + being lore of light = missile battery and (hopefully) some useful annoying buffs.

Army tactic is to distract everyone with pretty dragon and noble eagle + the eagles while the spears, swordmaster detachments and whitelions + BSB kill everything. Dragon and eagle aim for squishy unit and kill as much as possible with no real consideration for getting their points back. If they spend every game war machine hunting, well so be it.

+ I am very, very consious that dragon + 1 swordmaster detachment = another unit of 25 whitelions with FC...possibly the better investment, but no where near as fun (+ would have to source another 25 whitelions! or sell my soul and put my unassembled 20 phoenix guard together + rank filler and start using them). If the 8th books get even more crazy with monster killing stuff, it will definitely be on the cards (with a prince on eagle and noble doing something else killy in the 2nd whitelion/phonix guard unit).

Armies I will struggle against:
Skaven due to storm dumbness banner and empire with non-flaming cannons + stank (which neither army can really deal with). However I'm the local empire player (and can be selective when lending it out...) and skaven games are not "real games" anyway as a under pointed banner basically makes the army ineffective. However both lists have enough combat stuff to mitigate that and moon dragons are m6 with swift stride, so can still smash into clan rats easily enough. Right now consious that phoenix guard instead of dragon would solve this problem...possibly have fun army and tournament army...must be getting late...


  1. Copy cat...

    my 2c. Put a champion in with the whiteLions. You will regret it if your dragon ends up with them and he gets challenged out by a stupid champion.

    'Find a place' for the ruby ring. Why?
    well if you roll 9 dice (for instance) you don't have to roll so many dice at each spell. giving you less chance to miscast. 3 Spells is about all a mage ever casts in a magic phase neways.

    Btw .. have you considered chariots instead of sword masters. Why? well they wont get shot off because you have a dragon/ eagle rider to shoot first :) I know they didn't go so good for you in vermintide however

    Ogre blade is prob overkill... Sword of Might will most likely do the same job...(let mr dragon stomp face literally) if you are getting stretched for points. and maybe get the re-roll armour save on him instead(helm of fortune?)

  2. haha yeah I did like your dragon + eagle noble combo.

    Funny-dropping Ogre blade for SoMight is just enough points for the ruby ring.

    On the chariot front-I found my 5 swordmasters did alot more for me than the 2 chariots COMBINED. Even in the 2 games when not vs gunlines the swordmasters were the standout support unit.

    After I posted this, my during post musing turned into the following idea:

    Eagle prince:-same kit as dragon
    Noble: AoC and Amulet of light, GW
    lvl2: Scroll (light)
    2x25 Spears: FC
    10 Archers
    7 Swordmasters
    2x25 Wlions: FC
    2 Eagles

    Still have mobile slightly less killy Prince and limited magic "exposure" (but with magic missiles)-however have the killing power of 2 blocks of Wlions (both under silly Auck max points/unit comp) and 2 nobles that can either join the wlions for some overkill/or join the spears to give them some hitting power. Amulet of light is not on a unit champ so it can be mobile and placed where it needs to be-just now on a killy character who wants to be in the fight-but is not the BSB so limiting points exposure.

    My basic principle with Helves is "maximise the s6 attacks" and "limit the points leakage" while also being mobile enough to get some combo charges in. With the new scary being monsterous calv with 2+ AS, the re-rolling s6 becomes ever so more important to crack them open. The Prince helps here because he hits the flank and cannot be stomped + Ogre blade means still s6 with i8 if in the range of ASL bubble. I think that build is dominating because it has not run into a wall of wlions yet.